Posted by: reformedmusings | August 30, 2012

NYPD, Aurora CO and concealed carry citizens

I wrote in this post about the NYPD incident where police killed one murderer but also shot nine innocent bystanders in the process. In fact, the police shot nine times more innocents than the perp. In my post, I mentioned the role of police training.

On reddit, an NYPD officer offered insights into NYPD firearms training and policy. Since that write-up may not last long on the Net, I’m pasting it here:

NYPD officer here to answer any questions. Here are some facts:

•Every officer hired since the introduction of pistols in the NYPD back in the early nineties is NOT allowed to use a revolver as their service weapon. They must choose between a Glock 19, S&W 5946, or a Sig p226. All of these guns are in DAO variant and have NO external safety.

•Everyone who is allowed to carry a gun in the department (not everyone is) has to re-qualify once every six months (give or take, it’s been as short as five and as long as nine sometimes).

•MOST NYPD officers fire their FIRST gun, ever in their entire lives, at the police academy, some as young as 21 to as old as 35 shooting for their very first time, and on a DAO pistol.

•The qualifications are HORRIBLE mad get dumbed down every year.

•The NYPD offers once a month training for members to use, on their own time. However, all that is done during these sessions are the same basic dumbed down qualification exercises. You will only receive real help if you outright fail. Missed 12 out of fifty @ 7 yards? GOOD ENOUGH!

•Our tactical training is a joke and maybe ten people in a department of 34K have had Active Shooter training (I’m not exaggerating).

There is a lot broken, basically.

Some of our members NEVER take their service weapons out of their gun belts, and never carry ANYTHING off duty. I’ve seen people with 3 years on have brown rusted rear sights. Some never clean their weapons unless forced to by the firearms unit.

The NYPD has been tight fisted with ammo for the longest time. Take your one box and be happy.

I’ll answer any questions you guys have.

PS: Our holsters are shit also.

EDIT: Replaced DOA with DAO

EDIT: It’s true, twelve pins trigger springs suck

EDIT: We at only allowed Gen3 Glocks.

UPDATE: Guys I’ll be back tomorrow morning and I might send the verification to HCE.

Verification Update: I’m not sending any pictures of anything. The purpose of this throwaway is just to answer any questions you all might have. I’m sorry but that’s the way it will be. I will probably keep answering until the end of the week, then I will delete this account or let the mods archive it if they want. My job has a zero tolerance policy on officers making it look bad online.

He did answer a number of questions. On CCW citizen practice vs. police training:

“Any average CCW citizen who practices more then twice a year pretty much has most of the department beat in terms of training.”

About the NYPD shooting changing the NYPD firearms training program:

“Absolutely not. While I feel bad for those nine people, they will probably all be millionaires by New Years, all settled too. That’s how the city as a whole roles.

“Ever see Fight Club? His job where they decide what costs more, lawsuits or recalls? This is similar but I don’t think this will fix anything. All of our training will be standing still in our street clothes without our vests shooting at a stationary target a whole 15 yards away.”

On how he’d change NYPD training:

“I’d hammer in the four rules (they are not that conspicuous in our training, believe it or not)

“I’d throw away the 74% rule, up it to 90%. They are always saying we need to be held to a higher standard on everything else.

“Lose the heavy trigger springs and offer EXTREME penalties for ND’s.

“Use the WHOLE DAY for training, not just three hours of an 8 hour tour.

“Requalify in full uniform.

“Those are just some ideas I have.”

On the duty carry load:

“We are only allowed to carry 46 cartridges on patrol. 2 15rd mags on belt & one in the gun w/one in the pipe.”

On his weapons choice and NYPD policy:

“Because a Glock 19 holds 15 rounds + 1 in the chamber, as do the S&W & Sig. They want to make it uniformed in terms of how much you can carry. This way every cop carries 46 rounds of 9mm.”

On firearms qualification and practice (one box is 20 rounds for NYPD’s ammo type):

“For my actual test time, I get one box if I have one gun. If I purchased an authorized off duty gun, I must bring it and I get another box. What I do it shoot the ammo currently in my magazines. 50rnds per gun. Afterwards we use the box to replenish the magazines and they send us on our way.

“If I go for the monthly own time training, I get to use one gun, one box, that’s it. Pick service weapon or authorized off duty.”

On rifle “qualification”:

“The majority of the NYPD has never been trained on any of the M4’s, MP5’s or Ithaca shotguns we have. The last four academy classes were allowed to shoot 5 rounds each from an M4, and now they are all ‘rifle qualified’. When I ever get an AR, it will be my own.”

Ammo type used by NYPD:

“Speer Gold Dot JHP +P. Yes we use street ammo. No special training ammo. When I’m on my own at a private range I practice with ball ammo just because it’s all I can’t really afford and I’d rather have a lot to shoot. I guess they think that some cops are stupid enough to load the wrong ammo when they hit the street. (honestly, some might be). Funny anecdote, girl from the Bronx got in trouble during a magazine inspection at her roll call, (mind you they don’t happen often, I’ve had my magazines inspected 4 times at roll call in 6 years of policing) but apparently her mags were loaded up to 13 each instead of 15. When asked why, she said the last two rounds were ‘too hard’ to put in.”

On NYC’s handgun ban and citizen carry rights:

“Hate the ban. Totally for it [CCW].”

On the infamous 12 pound NY trigger:

“I absolutely HATE the trigger pull on my gun, however my trigger pull is 12lbs, so it’s not exactly natural DAO.”

And so on. Great read, but it’s a very long thread. I don’t expect it to be left up very long.

As I talked about earlier, the average concealed carrier shoots more rounds per firearm in a single range session than an NYPD officer does in a couple of years. Contrast the resultant performance of the NYPD with the following real life responses by concealed carriers.

In Baton Rouge, LA, a concealed carrier save the life of a police officer under attack, killing the officer’s attacker. The citizen, Perry Stevens, acted responsibility and did everything right. The perp was literally on top of the officer, yet Mr. Stevens didn’t hit the officer even once. All five shots hit their intended target – the perp.

In San Antonio, an armed citizen saved a woman’s life from a man in the process of stabbing her to death. He didn’t need to fire a shot. The perp surrendered immediately when realizing that he had brought a knife to a gunfight.

These types of incidents play out about 2.5 million times every year in one way or another. Those who say that an armed citizen in the movie theater in Aurora could only have made things worse (than 12 dead and 58 wounded?) are delusional. History shows that armed citizens shoot the wrong person only about 2% of the time, whereas police do so 11% of the time.

I appreciate what police officers do and am not trying to bash them in these posts. What I am trying to do is open people’s eyes to the truth that an armed citizen in the right place at the right time can be, and very often is, an effective first responder. When seconds count, the police are only minutes away, sometimes responding by spraying and praying. You don’t want to join the nine in NYC being on the wrong end of that exercise. I sure don’t.

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